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Jacques Martin
posted by Chris Aung-Thwin at 2h50 EST on Jan 21
June 2009
Jacques Martin: A defensive minded coach who would put an emphasis on smart, puck possession hockey. A mentor and teacher for young players like the Max Pacioretty, Max Lapierre, Ryan O’Byrne and most importantly – Carey Price. A bilingual head coach with years of experience in the NHL. A patient and collected individual who would bring calm to the media frenzy that is Montreal. A head coach who would fill the season with wins.
January 2010
Jacques Martin: A coach looking for answers - including playing 8 defensemen, four of whom are top 10 in the league for giveaways, when you’re team is looking for offense. A coach of a team that’s full of regressing youngsters. A coach who’s calmness is beginning to look more like a lack of emotion and passion. A coach who’s neck deep in losses.
Some questions:
1) What is the Jacques Martin system?
1a) If it’s puck possession and defense, why are we turning over the puck and allowing so many shots and goals?
2) Why are players like Maxim Lapierre and Max Pacioretty regressing?
2a) Is Jacques Martin good for the development of Carey Price (and Jaroslav Halak)?
3) Does Jacques Martin care?
This last question may be the most worrisome. Watching Jacques Martin interviews, he seems about as interested as Georges Laraque during a fight. They both go through the motions but are careful not to hurt anyone.
Speaking of BGL, why was he not dressed to face the St. Louis Blues? A team that is top 5 in the league with 40 fighting majors. A physical team with big guns Cam Janssen and B.J. Crombeen. Travis Moen did well against B.J., but Price shouldn’t have to take on Janssen (although I would’ve put money on Carey tonight).
Why play Ryan O’Byrne – a big, slow, and inexperienced NHLer – as a fourth line winger? Why put one of our young players in a position where it’s most likely that they’ll fail? Why, Jacques, did for 4:14 did the Montreal Canadiens have 4 defensemen and Glen Metropolit on the ice?
JM may look as calm as the Dalai Lama, but he’s scrambling worse than Guy Carbonneau.
…
I’ve wanted nothing more than to see the thrice Jack Adams’ nominee regain his form behind the bench of the Montreal Canadiens. I’m still hoping that it’ll happen. But I’ve got my doubts now and they’re growing with each roster decision, goalie-swap, odd match-up, and call for too-many-men.
I’m not off the Jacques Martin bandwagon yet, if only because it’s so expensive. I doubt that the seemingly perfect coach (calm, French-speaking, experienced, “system”) who was poached from Florida and signed a multi-year contract will be fired only halfway into his first season.
But if NBC can give Conan the boot (and $30 million) after 7 months, then I suppose anything can happen.
But what would happen? Bring up Hamilton’s Guy Boucher? I wouldn’t mind giving the coach that screwed Sergei’s head back on a chance with the big club but contractually, could Martin take on the job in Steeltown, or would he have to be moved upstairs? Or maybe Gainey can pull an a real NBC and bring Carbo back behind the bench.
Or am I just overreacting after a few stinkers?
Do you think Martin is a bust? Should he get fired or be given more time to implement his “system”? Which would you do first? – make a coaching change or orchestrate a big transaction before the Olympic trade freeze?
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Richard R
Hire Bob Hartley.
The system might need a some tweaking.
"Price is not the problem and Halak is not the solution, neither one of them can score goals."
You know, the team's system is broken, but I think the team's preparation (or lack thereof) has to be called into question. That's the simplest and most likely explanation for the sometimes-Jekyll, usually-Hyde personality of this team, as well as its dismal first-period record.
agree.
You hit everything right on the nose except I don't think O'Btyne is that slow. He is a very good skater but after he put that puck in his own net he hasn't played well. Playing Mara and putting him on forward was a big mistake. I been hard on JM and I really don't want to be but stuff like that really makes you wonder. BGL is not his fault or Gainey he just lost his edge and George is guy we all liked. The biggest problem on how this team is coach are the give ways. The Habs are a soft but skilled team and trying to play a system of defencive hockey plays right in the hands on a lot of bigger stronger teams. Bag skating a team that struggles to make simple passes makes you wonder are they looking at the video. They were better against Jersey and then used Torarella game plan against him by quick fast passes and counter attack. If this team is going to have success they need to move their feet and be the best in the league at passing. player can hold the wingers anymore getting the puck out fast everyone skating and putting pressure on the other team to move their feet is how this team needs to play.
...Wooof ...WHERE have you been Barry ??? ...You sure let it rip
...bang on mostly
...welcome to the Dogpound
Habitant means PASSIONATE HOCKEY
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=423049
Hi Surrey, I've been watching the site a long time and finally decided to jump in. Our patience is about to pay off. thanks for the kind words
The System in the Cap Era: Cycle your top 6 over 3 lines for the first 30 mins. Speed kills and draws penalties. Get up early or battle hard down. Rely on fresh legs to protect your lead. Use the "usual route" for the parade
Gionta for Captain and Dryden for PM
Hey Barry! Good to have your comments. You're right - it was definitely a nice to change to see the role players actively fulfilling their roles. A guy like Max Lapierre can be very valuable to a team, but the way he's been playing this year has been disappointing. Seeing him play like we did last season is a good sign. Calling out BGL for not knowing his role, calling up Darche and now sending MaxPac down will probably give most guys a good kick in the butt to start doing what they need to do.
We've got a fast team, with good special teams, some experience, some youth and scrappy players like Moen, Laps, and Metro. If we can make our way into the post season we'll be a tough team to handle.
Ride Halak right now, but don't give up on Price just yet ;)
Thanks Chris, happy to be here with everybody. Hope to get back to Mtl sometime down the road for a game or 2. I was there last year for a funeral (my uncle Jerry who used to be the PA announcer at the forum for a short time during the 60's) My dad Bob was a star player as a junior playing in Alexandria Ontario (Pouliot country) his best performance was a 9-1 victory where he had 8 goals and an assist. He was scouted by the Habs and played for the jr Habs before marrying and starting a family instead. He coached my bro and I to leagues best goalie and top scorer in our first year of play. Stu Cowan was on our team too. I got into music at 13 and gave up hockey as it was getting too expensive to pursue intercity hockey for the old man. He never got in our face about pursuing his dream. Too bad, I'm 6'1" 225 lbs and shoot right! (lol) Been reading your posts for a while and appreciate you responding.
My avatar reflects my sense of humour. I firmly believe we witnessed the pretender to contender transformation this past weekend. I haven't given up on Carey. But feel like he's earned the #2 spot because of off ice behaviour. Too bad Bob didn't give him a room. And too bad Guy Boucher will have to wait to mold him. Next season perhaps? It's a lot of fun to speculate and occasionally stir it up. You're stuck with me now. Hopefully next years summit will be doable. cheers from just north of Victoria BC
The System in the Cap Era: Cycle your top 6 over 3 lines for the first 30 mins. Speed kills and draws penalties. Get up early or battle hard down. Rely on fresh legs to protect your lead. Use the "usual route" for the parade
Gionta for Captain and Dryden for PM
8 goals and an assist? Not too shabby... I know the Alexandria/Alfred area - I grew up across the river (near where the Rouge meets the Ottawa). From what you wrote, it sounds like you've been immersed in hockey for most of your life. I'll be looking forward to your opinions and insights or, if nothing else, your sense of humour.
Gainey is the real problem here. Hopefully the old tradition of new ownership = new management comes true. Gainey did well in Dallas when there was no salary cap. What has he accomplished in Montreal? Nothing. He's keeping Price in Montreal instead of Hamilton because he doesn't want his high draft pick to look like a mistake. He dropped a good goalie in Huet late in the season and puts a 20 year old kid at the helm of a 1st place team. Stupid move. Hires a has-been coach who has never accomplished anything. You can see the lack of fire and passion in this team most nights. They don't hit, they're sloppy, and pass the puck around on the PP like the harlem globetrotters. They should hire a hot head like Tortorella, who'll kick their *** around and wake them up!!! If Gainey has any sense, he'll trade Lapierre and one of the D, for a high energy guy like Steve Ott. That's what this team has been lacking since Begin and Kostopolous left.
This question doesn't even need a debate. For the most part he got a clean slate to work with, after BG's housecleaning last summer. Fast forward to today, and we are presently out of the playoffs, have been outshot badly in many of our games, can't score, can't defend etc., etc., and in our last game we had two, TWO defensemen playing as forwards.
He has been a complete bust. If all of a sudden I ran the Habs, my first task would be to fire him IMMMEDIATELY!
Martin, like Ken Hitchcock and Pat Quinn, is a pre-lockout coach who has never won since the rule changes.
The other two will be canned this year.
Every young player has regressed this year: MaxL, MaxP, Lats, SK74, Chips, Stewie, Weber, O'Byrne, Dags.
He needlessly placed players in his doghouse: Laraque, LaT, SK74.
His style isn't defensive, it's passive and weak. Ask a poker player about passive and weak.
Afraid it's more than just a few stinkers, Chris. The stinkers there were plenty and where there is smoke there is fire. JM doesn't have an answer and he doesn't kow what to do. He is a mirror image of Carbonneau.
I agree Timo. I don't believe JM has the answers and I hate to trash the coach but...
He wants this team to be a puck possesion team but how is that possible when the horses he has are too small and soft to win the battles for the puck in the first place? It's his job to find a different way. He's got a potentially high-octane offence and should be working with that as the basis for his "system". It should begin by stressing two things. One, the defence can't always be last to the puck in their own end and two, effective outlet passing (with the defence being supported by the wingers in the D-zone). If you can't get out of the D-zone with control of the puck then you have no offence. Which, is exactly what we have all witnessed too many times this season. A chip off the glass is a panic play as opposed to getting it out with control.
It suggests to me that he's going completely in the wrong direction. Even as a lowly minor-hockey coach I have enough sense (after half a season) to asses then re-assess the talent that I have to work with and adjust my teaching and "system" to suit what's available to me. It looks to me like JM has yet to wake up from his slumber and do a proper assesment or he's stubbornly insisting on forcing his "system" - albeit flawed, down their throats.
The other thing about his system that I see as problematic reared its head when he coached Ottawa to the finals. His "be patient" system implies that your team must wait for the other team to err before your players get the "green light" to act. That only yields results in the short term. News flash Jacques! During the playoffs, every team tightens up and makes fewer mistakes , which in turn, means fewer scoring chances. In order to win, sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands, accept the risks, be pro-active and make things happen yourself not wait for them. You can't teach anyone to win with that approach.
To me that is and always will be a loser's philosophy. Just sayin'...
i'll support your bid if you want to make the jump from minor coach to behind the Habs bench...
Thanks, but I can't possibly imagine getting extremely well paid to generate results. What a concept!
By the way, the vote of confidence is a welcome change from where I sit. Maybe I could convince you to have a chat with some of the more "problematic" parents on my kid's team??
;-)
Go Habs...eventually
Like you, I'm having serious doubts about Martin. We spent the first 20 or so games of the season talking about the team needing time to gel and learn the system. Then the talk was about finding a way to stay around .500 until we got our injured players back, particularly Markov and Gionta. 50 games into the season, we have only one significant injury, Markov has been back for nearly a month, and we're still playing .500 hockey and looking bad more often than not. Our young players who we hoped would have breakthrough years (Pacioretty, D'Agostini, Sergei K) are mostly invisible, Price is back to his nonchalant, one bad goal per game pattern, our top two lines score (usually in alternate games) and our third and fourth lines contribute almost nothing either offensively or defensively. Our defense is soft, slow, porous and prone to turnovers. Where is this famous puck-possession, defense first system Jacques Martin talked about so much before the season began? Why are we outshot more often than not? Why are our defensive zone exits so laborious and ineffective? Why have we no transition game? Why are we unable to play 60 minutes? Is the team as bad as it looks or is it badly coached? Individually the players seem to have more talent than last year's team, but that team, even with the second-half meltdown, finished the season 11 games over .500. This year's team is heading for between 80 and 90 points. I'm starting to conclude that although the make-up of the team has certain problems (not enough size up front, not enough grit) the real problem is the coaching.
The general impression seems to be that Guy Boucher was hired to be the next coach of the Canadiens. I hope this is so, but also that we give him at least a full season in Hamilton first. I think this season is a washout for the Habs but if, early next season, there are no signs either of an effective system or of significant progress by our young players, it will be time for Gainey or whoever is G.M. at that point to step in. Fans will not easily tolerate another year in which the franchise goes backwards.
...you covered most of what many are questioning about Jacques Martin AND 'the system' Chris
...despite the unusual road Bob Gainey used to get Jacques Martin here (...JM moving 'down' from a VP to a coaching position IS not a daily occurance ...though I recognize Jacques saw the Panthers' organization as a sinking ship), I saw Martin as a 'stop-gap' ...an experienced, calming influence on Our make-over during the summer ...My gut told Me, based on seeing His results on previous teams, that JM does have potential to coach a respectably contending team, but not an elite 'winning team' ...because He seems to lack the qualities to convince His players to go the extra mile
...so I am not too surprised in where We are at in the standings ...especially considering the devastating injuries ...But like many I have been surprised by His apparent inability to use Our Players' strongest abilities, and fit those into His 'system' ...rather than Their best talents being apparently sublimated to a 'system' that is not working
...in My opinion, I like the fact We traded Latendresse for Pouliot, because I think Pouliot's potential for speed, highlight-reel goals, and agressiveness will be more dynamically exciting than Tender's plodding style, for a Montreal Team that cries for a charismatic Francophone Player ...Yet, in a perfect world, I prefer having BOTH of Them as One of Us
...But We are now seeing Guillaume is much more than He showed Us here ...and THAT I can not avoid putting on Jacques Martin's shoulders ...encouraging Me to surmise Jacques Martin is also not utilising the assets He has as productively as He should
...to Me, a 'system' MUST reflect the unique individual strengths and skills of the Player assets You have at this time ...'the system' should NOT drown your Players' skills and strengths
...I don't know Guy Boucher beyond what I have read about Him, but it seems optimizing individual Players skill-sets and personalities within 'a system' is WHAT He is all about ...AND so far, in Hamilton, His philosophy is a winning one
...if I was Bob Gainey, I would not bring a Boucher here to coach until He has accomplished something in Hamilton ...but the writing is on the wall
...being a Player, Coach or General Manager of the Montreal Canadiens is definitely more difficult than ANY of the other NHL teams (including the Maple Leafs) ...Our older generation of Fans (like Myself) are forged in Our ways by being spoiled by success and arrogance for several decades of pure delight as Montreal Canadiens' Fans ...then there are the younger Ones, which are a mix of the ignorant, disrespectful and also some very savvy ...so MANY different 'voices' and opinions of WHAT is 'right' for the Montreal Canadiens
...as an 'older Fan' it is difficult for Me to say this, but whether We are the 'ol' dinosaurs' or the 'New kids On The Block' as Fans, I think We have to recognise 'the old days' will never likely return where We will be winning 5 consecutive Stanley Cups, nor will We possess the most elite Francophones (hopefully I will be wrong on that one) as in the past ...So We must start catching-up to WHAT all other NHL teams needs to realistically do to rebuild and shape a future for Success
...HardHabits ...one of Our regular Fan commentors ...has an avatar I find humourous ...a picture of a military tank ...and yet another of Our commentors (can't recall his tag right now) but His avatar shows an anti-tank weapon of varied kinds huntin' poor ol' HardHabits down
...it's done in good humor, but it illustrates pretty well the dichotomy many Fans feel ...Myself, depending WHAT side of the bed I wake-up on in the morning, can have My foot schizoid-like in both 'armies'
...I personally would not 'tank' ...but I would be calm doing Our best this season ...and NOT give away the future to make the playoffs when I am realistic to realise We have a snowballs hope in Hell to get beyond the second-round (...I say generously)
...We need to build through the draft ...period
Habitant means PASSIONATE HOCKEY
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=423049
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, especially this:
"...to Me, a 'system' MUST reflect the unique individual strengths and skills of the Player assets You have at this time ...'the system' should NOT drown your Players' skills and strengths"
I feel that this team is confused between what they do well and what the coach wants them to do.
There is probably a disconnect, yes, but is there a team makeup that could do well with what Martin is teaching?
well...
A lot to think about.
Martin is an old dog.. you know the rest.
Not still sure what happened to Lever. They will not win this year, so maybe the plan is to eventually bring up the coach from Hamilton... hope it is.
Martin doesn't seem to have a "system" or a plan.
What is wrong with KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid... and get back to fundamentals.
We have iced some stupid line-ups this year... so if guys won;t play for 60 minutes, then let them sit for 60 minutes. I'm sure we can find guys who want to play hard, for an entire game.
We are suppose to have "speed", but seem to lack "passing".
We have players, but no one who goes to the net. This is simple stuff, really.
I love Gainey the player, starting to worry about Gainey the GM... maybe his time is done... but I still like him.
I think we really need a decent coach, with proper experience and an idea of where to take the team.
Thankfully, coached don't count against the Cap.
Still... Go Habs Go!
Martin is a bust. I think that's becoming increasinyly clear. Unfortunately, the coach getting fired is unlikely, though it seems to be the only plausible solution. And a big transaction in the team's current situation is likely to do more harm than good, spending future assets for a short-term boost that will go completely to waste in Martin's astoundingly ineffective system.
Originally I thought Martin was a fantastic hire, so I can't really blame Gainey for him, but now it looks like a big, costly mistake. I'm despairing because of the realization that with his fat 4-year contract and the whole "he's only got 50 games", and given that the GM is systematically moving players away to please him... we're likely to see him stay for at least another year, and there is no reason whatsoever to expect an improvement of any sort. This is going to be a poorly-coached team for the foreseeable future.
A lot of people have touched onto why I think the Habs are badly coached (weak 5-on-5 game, underperfoming roster, regressing youth, discipline problems, weak first periods hinting at preparation problems). I want to touch on something else though: Martin just doesn't seem to know what a "puck possession" system entails.
It seems like it should be obvious, but after he was asked to explain his system and spent most of his response describing how chipping the puck can be important to a puck possession system (the quote is on HabsInsideOut), I lost all faith. Chipping the puck is relinquishing possession, Jacques. It can be valid, but it's not a puck possession system anymore. And after your GM believed your spiel about wanting a puck possession system and got you players who could play that style, it's no wonder that the roster is a mismatch for... whatever it is you're teaching. Not that there's a roster that could be successful with that ultrapassive crap.
Martin doesn't really want a puck possession system. For him, it's a fashionable buzzword, devoid of substance.
Martins coaching makes me sick! Of all Gainey's stupid moves, hiring Martin was the worst. Also every team has the same amount of money to spend, and Gainey spent ours poorly!
Carbo NOW!
This team has been on a downward spiral since February 2009.
They have rarely played a full 60 minutes regardless of who is coaching.
They completely transformed the team and yet we have the same result.
Who is the one constant?
Is it Gainey?
Who has hired and fired supposedly can't miss coaches in a Steinbrenner like fashion in the last 5 years?
Who had taken great lengths to honor past Habs, but has a poor track record with how they treat current players/staff-see Carbonneau, Lever, Ryder,Huet, Rivet, Begin,Boullion,Laraque etc.-kicking them to the curb.
Who clings to notions or ideas of what they think players are-see Price- yet can't see the potential in others-see Halak.
Who has let quality players walk away without compensation-Souray, Streit- and will do the same again this year-Pleks, Halak.
How can a group of youngsters (D'Agostini, Pacioretty,O'Byrne) go from can't miss to not good enough.
I love and respect Gainey but all this has happened under his watch and his scouting staff.
To me the problem is obvious-change has to begin from the top down.
Time for a new vision.
Time to start now.
Gainey is a much better coach than Martin, but he has been there and done that. I really think he is grooming the next Habs coach in Hamiliton. What the arrangement with Martin is/was I don't know but I honestly believe he is a stop gap as coach. Really, Ottawa never won anything under him, and neither did Florida.
If you buy in that the players are talented and regressing then you have to think the coaching staff is a problem. If 5 on 5 is a weakness (and most nights that is the majority of the game) then you have a big coaching problem.
If you buy in that the players are not all that great, then you are crediting the coach and his system with getting the most out of the players.
Me, I'm just going to guess that it has been so long since the team had an assertive leader who walked the walk after every talk the talk, that this team has no concept of how to win. In a league where the difference between the playoffs and not is the number of times you didn't lose in regulation, but didn't win, then character and leadership probably make the difference.
My opinion of course, but one thing I know is that young men need a leader to excel, witness Crosby in Pittsburg, and without one they never achieve much. Only the players know the real situation though, and they are paid not to tell non-players (even McGuire :-) what they really think.
As long as we don't pretend that Guy Carbonneau was Scotty Bowman, I think you're being fair with your evaluation. The only identity this team has so far is that if our goalie doesn't stand on its head, we have no chance of winning, and even our goalies are mishandled. Play your hot hand, fine, but don't play a goalie for a month and he tends to get really cold! There's no reason Halak and Price cannot play at least once every week, no matter who's no. 1.
And for a team with defensive mastermind as a coach, our defense has been terrible. It's amazing how many giveaways we have each night, as if nobody knew how to adjust our system.
Gainey has been criticized a lot lately but of all of his hires, Martin might be the biggest mistake!
we will make the playoffs if we don't use price any more.
I hate Jacques Martin.
I hate his "system".
I hate the fact that he's our coach.
I hate the fact that he's a lousy coach.
I said this before the season. "Florida misses the playoffs for 3 straight years with Martin behind the bench. As soon as he steps down as coach, they miss the playoffs on a technicality (us having more Wins). Coincidence? No. Martin sucks as a coach. Martin had an excellent team in Ottawa, and couldn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs. As soon as he's fired, they get to the Cup Finals. Martin sucks as a coach."
U want to know why the Habs system is broken and Martin doesn't seem to be getting it done?
Here are your answers:
http://www.habsaddict.com/2010/01/win-1-lose-1-habs-back-at-500-habs.html
Awesome analysis, Kamal. JM has sure got me worried...
I STILL don't understand the firing of Claude Julien...can we all get into the "wayback machine" Mr. Peabody??
So far this year Martin has been unable to work with Latendresse, Chipchura and now Laraque. And Halak and Sergei have asked to be traded at times this season.
Anyone think JM is popular in the locker room?
I, personnaly, am ready to give JM this season, plus half of next season (it should come pretty fast!). In December 2010, if the Habs are the same as they are now. Bye bye JM.
Besides, according to every "expert", if the Habs miss the playoffs this season, Bob Gainey is a goner and usually, with a new GM comes a new coach...
We'll see
You're not overreacting. I think the fans have been overly patient. We watched the 1st 20 or so games waiting to see the team gel and the 'system at work'. Here we are, some 50 games later and I'll be damned if I can see a system or a coach who knows how to get the best out of his players. From Carbo to Martin, this is just friggin depressing. On top of it all, the biggest disappointments to date have been Gill (horrible) Spacek (tries but too slow and old) and Mara (cluless on most nights) Gorges gives his all but is hampered by his size. Markov came back strong but has joined the rest of the Pillsbury boys in the turnover production of late. We have one scoring line per game....some nights it's Plecky's line...other night's it's Gomez's. Our 3rd and 4rth lines are ineffective offensively and defensively.
But all in all we're in good shape. (LOL!!!) And Bob did say we're gonna make the playoffs, so not to worry.
I pick option 2 mediocre coach of a mediocre team.
That said I would not make a coaching change until the off season.
Bring up Boucher next season and move Martin into the front office some where.
I dont think we are going to make the playoffs regardless of what we do at this point but a coaching change might give the team enough of a lift to take them out of a top 5 draft pick.
Anyone of these guys I think would look very good in a habs uniform.
Taylor Hall
Tyler Seguin
Cam Fowler
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